Legal Wheeling in Delaware (Not a Canal Thread)

    Quote from deadfeat


    Would think if its kept as private land, and we give donations as opposed to paying, it may reduce the liability. Sign a waiver and it should be good. Perhaps if its an exclusive DEJA thing, we could require only paid members have access. This would increase paid memebership, and then contribute as a club to the land owner



    I know this is still very early stages on the drawing board but keep the ideas coming. Those are some good ideas and will be brought up in conversations with them. If this thing takes off these will be ideas that will be brought to Billy, the BOD, and the club as a whole. I will see what the land owner would be comfortable with as far as payment and such. Im sure he wants to limit liabilty as much as possible. I am 50/50 on only letting paid members I see both sides. I wouldn't want to cut anyone out from the land but increasing club membership is a good thing. If it came to "members only" im sure that the land owner would first have to approve and the club would have to take an official vote. Maybe it could be something like paid members are on a donation basis and non members would have to pay the nominal fee.
    I know either way the land owner would need help and it would only be fair to compensate him for land use. I do know that he will be willing to barter help with trail cutting and building in exchange for some free wheeling provided this take off.

    Not to be a Downer but is the land even zoned for this type of use? :shrug: The land owner may want to check into this before spending his time and money.

    Neill


    In a perfect world every dog would have a home and every home would have a dog.

    A few of my thoughts having seen this come up in the past.


    Since there are no rocks in DE, what you will end up with is muddy trails and mud holes that just get deeper with every vehicle that drives through them. Maybe some are into that, but it will get old fast. I doubt many would pay to do it more than once or twice.


    And once word gets out security could be a concern.


    If you want to look at a similar model, ESJA charges $100/yr to it's land members.


    They have done a lot of work to keep their land interesting, but it's still basically trails thru the woods with some logs and old tires to drive over.


    I'll be curious to see where this goes.

    I doubt making it exclusive to DEJA would work...that means DEJA would also be responsible and open to lawsuits. I would think the land owner would need to make his own "club" with bylaws, ect to do something like this. Similar to Rausch Creek, where you sign a waver, pay a membership fee, and a per use fee....all of which show that you agree to the terms of use, and are doing them willingly. you can still sue rausch...but they can say..
    #1 you signed the waiver saying you are aware
    #2 you paid meaning you were required to understand the terms of use AND provide emergency contact info
    #3 you paid per visit, meaning you are still aware there are dangers

    There isn't a zoning issue in Delaware for that.... Hell I've been doing it for years in farmers feilds.... Legally of course ::) but c + c customs did something similar during jeep week and pretty much had us saying they were not liable for any injury or death to person or persons in vehicle as well as damages accrued during off road sites. And they actually had a pretty cool obstacle course. Only downfall is it is 30 acres and a membership fee as well a trail fee is definitely understandable. But I would think it would be a great idea and am more then willing to help clear paths and could possible get some good rocks and concrete for ya.

    Anytime you take your 20+ year old jeep apart plan on fixing more them you intended.

    Quote from 1991yj


    There isn't a zoning issue in Delaware for that.... Hell I've been doing it for years in farmers feilds.... Legally of course ::


    Not sure that's the same.


    If there's money changing hands, then it's a commercial venture.


    I know early on in ESJA's land thing neighbors were complaining about all the mud on the road, etc.

    But where he is describing hell your lucky to see a cop out there in months let alone a zoning official. All it is is a bunch of people who have fun off roading that pitch in money to keep it unde control.

    Anytime you take your 20+ year old jeep apart plan on fixing more them you intended.

    I think it's an awesome idea and I'd be happy to help with trail building if it gets going. I was part of a club in Charlottesville va called rcpfa. They had there own piece of land that they recently lost. It was about that size and it was awesome, granted it was in the va mountains but if you design the trails right and the obstacles are tough you can fit a lot in that amount of space.They lost it because part of the land was a creek so the pollution of running water issue got them shut down. They have since acquired new land though and are clearing trails. I know they have a lawyer to make sure everything is legit, I would recommend doing the same. If you want to speak with one of the board members for advise let me know. Different state but similar issues to deal with.



    Keith hit the nail on the head here. Its a lot of work and in the end its fun, but for my $ I would rather go to RC. I used to be VP of ESJA and the land was very nice to have for events, but with the constant maintenance and security it does put a burden on the club.

    If this becomes a reality I really don't think that this will be a large commercial or financial matter (at least in the beginning). For the 30 acre lot a test It may resemble the Pocomoke fair and Jeep jam type of thing. Some areas would be more muddy like at Pocomoke and others would be built like the Jeep jam. This wouldn't really be a place to rival RC but would be more of an off road itch filler or a local place to test your rig after a mod. Things like a Halloween and snow ride could be arranged. Just a local place to have fun and pop it into 4wd.


    No rocks and all mud is an issue that will have to be addressed depending on what is there. Things can be built and work would have to be done to create things that wont "get old" but it is a possibility. In reality depending on how much work would be needed would in some way dictate this actually happening. I know personally I enjoy some mud as much as I like the rocks at RC.



    On a side note talks have also begun with my wife's friends that have 100 acres on the other side of Smyrna. This area maybe better since its larger. I will be trying to take a ride around there to see what that area has to offer. They would be ok with us building on there land. However, there has not been any final talks with them just has been brought up unofficially.



    Zoning will be an issue but there is always a way around zoning. Maybe to stay way from a legal zoning issue the land owner would take donations to drive on the land. It is private property and as far as our research has detailed they are just not allowed to develop the land into a neighborhood. They are allowed to hunt and drive on their land so if it were on an unofficial donation basis it may work. I know the people with 100 acres let people drive on their land and have never had an issue but that was a smaller scale and with friends of their children.



    I will keep you posted.

    Having a few friends over to drive around is a lot different than what you are suggesting.


    And also keep in mind that since this would be posted here for everyone on the interwebs to see, it's not like it could be kept on the down low. And that includes any "unofficial arrangements".


    My personal opinion would be for DEJA to stay detached in all ways legal from whatever becomes of it. I just don't see enough good coming from it to offset all the potential headaches and liabilities.

    Simply put , negative thinking will make you talk yourself out of pretty much anything... Taking some risks makes life worth living. I for one would love a place local to play, even if its mud, logs tires and old concrete. If the land owner is willing, so am I. Building trails .. I'm up for it. Want rocks.. bring some, If every jeep brought a few big rocks, would could have a rock trail.


    Let us know what we can do.

    Nobody belongs anywhere, nobody exists on purpose, everybody's going to die. Have a beer.


    Jeeps Owned... 89YJ, 81CJ-8, 99XJ, 93XJ, 00WJ, 05LJ, 22Bronco Badlands !

    Quote from Keith_C


    Having a few friends over to drive around is a lot different than what you are suggesting.


    And also keep in mind that since this would be posted here for everyone on the interwebs to see, it's not like it could be kept on the down low. And that includes any "unofficial arrangements".


    My personal opinion would be for DEJA to stay detached in all ways legal from whatever becomes of it. I just don't see enough good coming from it to offset all the potential headaches and liabilities.



    You are right some of what is being discussed is different than letting a few friends over but depending on how it is created the legal difference can be eliminated.



    No arrangements have been made so everything is unofficial. In fact the entire thought of this happening is unofficial. The land owners may or may not want to do this and may or may not invite the club even if they do. Yes it is on the internet for everyone to include the land owners to see and contribute. No one knows the exact location on this site other than my wife and me so if anything were to happen now on the land would not be able to fall back on the club.



    Unless the club sponsored and invested in the area than DEJA would be legally free. If the club were to run the land in an ESJA way than yes I can see your point about being legally in the line of fire, and really that is not what the point of this idea was. Since the land is not owned by DEJA and unless DEJA was to be in a contract with the land owner for exclusive rights to run functions there than there could be no legal ramifications on the club. The idea of having this tied to the club had been made as well as taking donations. One would make us liable while one would leave us clear.



    The entire point of this thread was to first see if there would be any interest and second if there was an interest spitball ideas if anything was to become of this. My first post still holds true that this is hypothetical. I've not talked as a representative of the club to the owners since that is not my place they are friends of mine and my wife's. Conversations on what to do with their unused land has come up but I have always told them that any official club actions would have to go through Billy (or who ever is the president at the time). I have simply brought the idea to the club to see what the reaction would be. Everything is unofficial until the club would officially become involved if that is what the club chose to do.



    I think we both agree that no one here would want DEJA to become legally affected by anything mentioned on this site as a whole. In my opinion though if there was to be a legal private area in Delaware that would help with people illegally wheeling at the Canal.

    Quote from deadfeat


    Simply put , negative thinking will make you talk yourself out of pretty much anything... Taking some risks makes life worth living. I for one would love a place local to play, even if its mud, logs tires and old concrete. If the land owner is willing, so am I. Building trails .. I'm up for it. Want rocks.. bring some, If every jeep brought a few big rocks, would could have a rock trail.


    Let us know what we can do.



    :up:

    Quote from Hagar The Horrible


    In my opinion though if there was to be a legal private area in Delaware that would help with people illegally wheeling at the Canal.


    Maybe if there were public transfer stations people wouldn't dump their junk there either. (Oh wait...)



    Like I said earlier on, I'll be curious to see where this goes.


    But it's not a new concept and many others have tried similar things with poor results.


    Steve thinks I'm a pessimist, but I'm more of a realist. :)

    Quote from Keith_C


    [
    Steve thinks I'm a pessimist, but I'm more of a realist. :)


    Dear Optimist , Pessimist, and Realist.

    While you guys were arguing about the glass of water. I drank it!!!

    Signed: The Opportunist

    Nobody belongs anywhere, nobody exists on purpose, everybody's going to die. Have a beer.


    Jeeps Owned... 89YJ, 81CJ-8, 99XJ, 93XJ, 00WJ, 05LJ, 22Bronco Badlands !

    Edited once, last by deadfeat ().



    I would like to think of myself as a realist also even though I have crazy ideas at times. So maybe i'm a realist with optimistic tendencies :) . Ideas have to be looked at from all sides and reality is of the utmost importance. I didn't know that other have tried this but I can fully understand how this could easily fail. Even if the legal aspect is cleared up there is still the hurtle of making it interesting and not just all mud. The optimist in me would like to think that if the owners do move forward with this than the ideas and collective brain power of DEJA could make this a fun place.



    I figure that even with DEJA being legally free of this, a land owner + DEJAs ideas and off road expertise= a fun place to get dirty locally.



    I hope everyone keeps the ideas coming. And if it does fail at least we tried.

    I'm just trying to figure out how come one guy tries to Shit on the proverbial perade.

    Anytime you take your 20+ year old jeep apart plan on fixing more them you intended.

    Quote from 1991yj


    I'm just trying to figure out how come one guy tries to Shit on the proverbial perade.


    Just trying to keep it real.


    You are very new here, we've been down these roads before.


    Everyone gets all worked up about something, but when it comes time to show up to help out, everyone has something else to do.



    Maybe this would be different, maybe not.

    Might be new but my word is bond anybody that knows me personally on here will tell you I mean what I say. I Truely hope this works out to some extent. But of course I've done it for years down here without permission :razz: so doing it without the cops breathing on me would be nice for once. ( I'm just kidding on the last part) I do remember the days when the canal was legal.

    Anytime you take your 20+ year old jeep apart plan on fixing more them you intended.

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