Emissions Help

  • So I'm trying to get my old girl through the emissions test to renew my tags. I've been through 4x now and although I've managed to reduce my HCs to acceptable levels, my COs are way high. They gave me an inspection check off report that I have to fill out and turn in next time I go through. The only thing different this year as opposed to 2 years ago was that I had a new muffler and tailpipe welded on. The Jeep was running perfectly fine before the tune up and Seafoam treatment so I don't have a clue as to why it's running so crappy now. I went over to Dugan's yesterday and we tried to figure out what the cause was but the only thing we found was a samll vac leak at the spacer plate between the carb and intake.


    Here is the rundown on what I've done so far.


    Tune up = New plugs (2x), new cap/rotor, new wires, new air filter, new fuel filter, new PCV, new muffler, new tailpipe, Seafoam in oil and fuel, ran a 1 tank of 91 octane through it, checked all and replaced a few vac lines, checked and adjusted timing to 9* btdc, tightened down valve cover (leaking)


    Bypass attempts = removed air filter, removed PCV, added rubbing alcohol to fuel, pulled brake booster vac line (Jeep wouldn't run so I did not get inspected that way), adjusted fuel/air mix screws on carb (did absolutely nothing to help/hinder), cleaned carb and idle tubes


    Symptoms (now) = running way too rich, erratic idle, sputtering/missing during cold start (seems to run okay when I get out on the main roads and up to speed), horrendous dry fouling on new plugs, will stall if the nose of the Jeep is elevated (speed bumps and driveway curb), a LOT of black smoke exiting the tailpipe


    Specs = 1989, 4.2, 258ci, 6cyl, auto trans, Carter 2bbl carb (2-3 years old), Nutter Bypass (no ECU, EGR, O2, or fresh air pulse system), Team Rush upgrade (Ford cap/rotor and 8mm wires), Timing set @ 9* btdc


    Please, Please, Please, any and all help will be greatly appreciated. I started this endeavour a month before my tags were to expire but now I've surpassed the expiration of my temp tag by a week and am running on borrowed time. I'm hoping they'll be gracious enough to grant me a 2nd temp tag today. I need to get this squared away ASAP as it's my daily driver. I will post up pictures from my phone shortly.

    Your life is made up of 2 dates and a dash... make the most of the dash!

  • #1- 2yr old plugs I removed
    #2- exhaust stain
    #3- exhaust deposit on towel
    #4- fouled exhaust tip
    #5- 4 day old fouled plugs on bottom, 2nd new set on top
    #6- closer pic of fouled plugs

  • black soot out the tail pipe confirms that it's running rich. Perhaps the carburetor needs a rebuild? Is there a choke? Maybe it's sticking.

    Member since 2000

    Jeeps Owned'79 CJ5:

    Specs-

    - 258 I6

    - '93 Cherokee fuel injection and HO head,

    - bored 30 over

    - with 4x4 cam

    T18 tranny with granny low / Dana 18 t-case

    Dana 44 front and back from late '70s Wagoneer, both locked and loaded with 4.88 gears

    SOA on modified YJ springs with shackle reversa

    Fiberglass tub with 6 point cage mounted to the frame


    2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
    Spec-

    Quadratec Floor mats

  • In the past if you could show them that you spent $200 on repairs and still didn't pass, they would issue you an emissions waiver.
    That being said when I drove carbureted cars I would always drive it like I stole it to the Parking lot of the DMV, remove the air cleaner, lean out the fuel mixture, and retard the timing until it would run like absolute dogshit. That usually got me through. Sometimes leaning the fuel way out would send the hydro carbons out of wack a bit and it would take another slight adjustment to get it to pass. I'm not sure I would remove any vacuum hoses. They use to sell some stuff at PepBoys called gaurenteed to pass... Can't hurt.

    2000 Sahara, All custom...
    2000 Cherokee Police package, Beater....


    I may be slowest and the stupidest

  • 1 or 2 thoughts , timing related.. too much vac at the distributor, will cause to run advanced, should be a ported vac source from the base of the carb. Also if the distributor is installed off 1 tooth.

    Nobody belongs anywhere, nobody exists on purpose, everybody's going to die. Have a beer.


    Jeeps Owned... 89YJ, 81CJ-8, 99XJ, 93XJ, 00WJ, 05LJ, 22Bronco Badlands !

  • I've heard of people taking a propane bottle attached to a small tube going into a "t" in the pcv hose at the base of the carb. Then they turn on the propane at emissions test time. Burns real clean.
    I think those same people later went to work for Volkswagen. It might not be all that legal, but you said you wanted help.

  • From looking at the plugs, I would say you are about one or two jet sizes too rich, and the idle mixture could be leaned out a bit. In my experience, carbs that need rebuilding usually run lean, because crud blocks the jets and cuts down fuel supply.
    If the idle mixture screws don't work, there are a few things to look for. When the throttle is closed, foot off the pedal, look at the throttle plates. They should be adjusted to where there is about .020" between the plate and the bore. If not, the carb might be open too far and actually running on the next fuel circuit, which renders the idle adjustment useless.
    Worn out needles also won't adjust well.
    And the timing, did you check that with the vacuum advance connected or disconnected and plugged at the carb? Needs to be disconnected to check the spec.
    Vacuum leaks on hoses or carb base will make it run leaner, which doesn't seem to be the problem.

  • take it to a mechanic with a exhaust gas analizer. thats the only way u r gonna be able to tune the carb to pass. Also didnt see what carb u were running?

  • black soot out the tail pipe confirms that it's running rich. Perhaps the carburetor needs a rebuild? Is there a choke? Maybe it's sticking.

    The carb has an electric choke on it. I believe it's in good order and working properly but I'll go test it shortly. I've never rebuilt a carb but I watched some good Youtube videos on it yesterday and it doesn't seem overly complicated. I may also stay at a Holiday Inn and then I might just take a crack at it. 8o The other thing I would consider is upgrading to a HEI distributor and a MC2150 carb but I'm not too read up on that process yet. All of the chatter I read about it over on JF seems like it is a worthwhile upgrade.

    In the past if you could show them that you spent $200 on repairs and still didn't pass, they would issue you an emissions waiver.
    That being said when I drove carbureted cars I would always drive it like I stole it to the Parking lot of the DMV, remove the air cleaner, lean out the fuel mixture, and retard the timing until it would run like absolute dogshit. That usually got me through. Sometimes leaning the fuel way out would send the hydro carbons out of wack a bit and it would take another slight adjustment to get it to pass. I'm not sure I would remove any vacuum hoses. They use to sell some stuff at PepBoys called gaurenteed to pass... Can't hurt.

    The total that you must now prove you've spent is $873!!!!!! That is absolutely freaking ridiculous! They still sell the GTP stuff at most local auto stores. I'll more than likely try that next along with the other tricks you mentioned.

    1 or 2 thoughts , timing related.. too much vac at the distributor, will cause to run advanced, should be a ported vac source from the base of the carb. Also if the distributor is installed off 1 tooth.

    Dist Adv is running off of ported vac. The distributor has not been pulled in the 6 years I have owned it. The only thing I've done was loosen the retainer bolt to set the timing.

    take it to a mechanic with a exhaust gas analizer. thats the only way u r gonna be able to tune the carb to pass. Also didnt see what carb u were running?

    I'm running a re'man Carter 2bbl carb (OEM for the 4.2) that I bought 2-3 years ago from Guaranteed Carburetors down in FL. They have a lifetime warranty on them but my problem probably doesn't fall under that. I'm going to call them today and see what they think they may be able to do. I will also look into switching to the MC2150 if they'll take my Carter back as the core return. The core charge is only $78 difference, if not.

    Your life is made up of 2 dates and a dash... make the most of the dash!

  • From looking at the plugs, I would say you are about one or two jet sizes too rich, and the idle mixture could be leaned out a bit. In my experience, carbs that need rebuilding usually run lean, because crud blocks the jets and cuts down fuel supply.
    If the idle mixture screws don't work, there are a few things to look for. When the throttle is closed, foot off the pedal, look at the throttle plates. They should be adjusted to where there is about .020" between the plate and the bore. If not, the carb might be open too far and actually running on the next fuel circuit, which renders the idle adjustment useless.
    Worn out needles also won't adjust well.
    And the timing, did you check that with the vacuum advance connected or disconnected and plugged at the carb? Needs to be disconnected to check the spec.
    Vacuum leaks on hoses or carb base will make it run leaner, which doesn't seem to be the problem.

    The timing was set with the vac adv disconnected and plugged. For the Nutter Bypass, the timing range is best set between 8* and 12* btdc. I have it currently set at 9* and it has run well since I did the bypass.


    The idle tubes were drilled out to .037" as well to prevent them from clogging so easily and have not caused any issue since I did that in January of last year.


    The vac leak we found by spraying starter fluid around the intake, carb and vac lines. When we hit the spot at the base of the carb where the EGR sits as well, it bogged down noticeably. I cranked the EGR bolts about a 1/4 turn more but the carb still bogged when we hit the same area again.


    The needles, I would think, shouldn't be worn out on a 2-3 year old carb. Since I installed the carb, they've never been touched until last week. I am going to go back to them and run them all the way in and then 2-3 turns back out. It might not change anything but that is about where they should be set if they are working properly. As for the throttle plate description you gave me, I'll have to do some Googling and figure out what they are. I'm not very well versed on carb makeup/operation other than the few small things I've done with guidance from online writeups. I was terrified to even touch the idle mix screws up until I figured it was my last resort last week. When I installed the fuel filter, I did reposition the S-shaped fuel rail so that the filter would sit level. Do you think that when I tightened it back down at the carb, it might have messed with the floats inside the carb?

    Your life is made up of 2 dates and a dash... make the most of the dash!

  • a while back i had an 89 YJ 5spd with a weber carb that i could get to pass by driving to dmv or very close to it. then I would set the timing to 0 (yes zero) and lean the mixture as far as i could get it. The motor would barely run over about 2000 RPM and wouldnt make any power at all, but it would pass. I basically tried to do whatever I could to lean it out and to get a complete burn. my thinking may have been flawed (nothing new) but it worked. Then before driving it home I'd have to re-set the timing and mixture. Just a thought. I hope you get it figured out.

  • I've gotten racing fuel at Christiana Auto to get it through inspection in the past. Worked great. You just have to run your tank to almost empty before putting the fuel in and then go directly over to get it inspected because it will evaporate overnight.


    I'm not sure they are still open.

    Member since 2000

    Jeeps Owned'79 CJ5:

    Specs-

    - 258 I6

    - '93 Cherokee fuel injection and HO head,

    - bored 30 over

    - with 4x4 cam

    T18 tranny with granny low / Dana 18 t-case

    Dana 44 front and back from late '70s Wagoneer, both locked and loaded with 4.88 gears

    SOA on modified YJ springs with shackle reversa

    Fiberglass tub with 6 point cage mounted to the frame


    2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
    Spec-

    Quadratec Floor mats

  • Remanufactured carbs can be junk. Took me a couple tries to get one where the throttle plates worked properly and the accelerator pump bore wasn't shot. They reuse the cores you return.
    I don't think you affected the float if you didn't overtighten. Did you replace the egr gasket?

  • I've gotten racing fuel at Christiana Auto to get it through inspection in the past. Worked great. You just have to run your tank to almost empty before putting the fuel in and then go directly over to get it inspected because it will evaporate overnight.


    I'm not sure they are still open.

    I believe they still are but not 100% on that either.

    Remanufactured carbs can be junk. Took me a couple tries to get one where the throttle plates worked properly and the accelerator pump bore wasn't shot. They reuse the cores you return.
    I don't think you affected the float if you didn't overtighten. Did you replace the egr gasket?

    I didn't replace the EGR gasket but that's an easy 5 min fix. The EGR is not hooked up to anything anymore since the Nutter Bypass was done. When I did it, I was reluctant to remove the EGR and install a block off plate. I have not yet seen a DMV inspector do a visual check but I don't want to take that chance either with my luck. I figured one day I'll probably make a block off plate and modify the old EGR valve to still flush mount against the plate for visual purposes only. That was never a high priority item though.


    So today I'm going to Seafoam the vac system lines (maybe, still undecided), replace the carb base gasket and EGR gasket, recheck timing and set it to at least 12*, readjust the idle, recheck all of my vac lines and connectors for splits/cracks, recheck cap/rotor/wires/plugs (I can replace the 1st 3 under warranty if needed), readjust the idle mix screws, readjust the carb fuel inlet back where it was and take it back through inspection on Monday.... after driving like I stole it and a few necessary pre-inspection changes! Here's hoping for the best and I'll post an update following inspection!

    Your life is made up of 2 dates and a dash... make the most of the dash!

  • dump the bbd carb, you can play with the mixture screws all day and it makes no difference. I put a weber 32/36 on my cj and could almost get it to pass with a hollowed out cat converter. ( previous owner told me all new exhaust). Disconnect vacuum advance and lean out the carb till it stumbles but can run on its own. I've always detuned it in the parking lot and re-tuned it in the lot once I passed. This has worked for me twice so far and my emissions would be in single digits, the tech at the dmv told me my cj runs cleaner then a newer car.
    Don't put cleaners in your fuel or engine before you go it will break up the gunk and burn off out the exhaust, making your numbers higher then they should be. Also don't go on a rainy or humid day, carbs have a hard time compensating humidity especially when they are not computer controlled.

  • A huge, giant, enormous THANK YOU!! to Andy for his generosity today! We were @ the Jeeps&Java this morning and got to talking about my problems with the YJ. Andy was kind do enough to invite me over to take a look at my YJ. We dug into the carb and he discovered the cause of the issue. Apparently when I changed out the fuel filter during the tune up, a small piece of the hose (and I do mean small, just a tiny crumb) had lodged up against the fuel inlet needle causing it to stick open. The Jets were just pouring fuel out even at idle! It was pretty bad too! I burned about 1/2 a tank of gas running to Smyrna and then to Andy's house this morning!! Well, we got it all buttoned back up, fired her up, adjusted the idle and she was purring like a kitten. Andy really knows his way around carbs and I was impressed! He also took the time to explain the ins and outs of what we were doing, how it worked and what needed to be done. Can't say enough about how thankful I am for his kindness and help today!


    Thank you again Andy!

    Your life is made up of 2 dates and a dash... make the most of the dash!

  • That's awesome! Sorry I forgot about the J&J. I was planning on going for the waffles


    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

    Member since 2000

    Jeeps Owned'79 CJ5:

    Specs-

    - 258 I6

    - '93 Cherokee fuel injection and HO head,

    - bored 30 over

    - with 4x4 cam

    T18 tranny with granny low / Dana 18 t-case

    Dana 44 front and back from late '70s Wagoneer, both locked and loaded with 4.88 gears

    SOA on modified YJ springs with shackle reversa

    Fiberglass tub with 6 point cage mounted to the frame


    2015 Grand Cherokee Limited
    Spec-

    Quadratec Floor mats

  • No worries John! I was 15 mins late getting there myself. A few people showed up earlier and had already eaten so we hung out in the parking lot for a bit.

    Your life is made up of 2 dates and a dash... make the most of the dash!

  • Wonderful news. Glad you were able to get the issue fixed. Now the big test.... DMV
    Fingers are crossed for ya. Good luck

    If you're afraid of struggle, then you're afraid of growth. You have to go through it to get to it. Let it build you, not break you.

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