I went to Goodyear in Hockessin Friday to get my front end aligned. (A friend of a friend works there and is said to be the best) Anyway he told me he wanted me to get a drop pitman arm to do it right. He said that if I don't he would have to use all the adjustment to straighten out the toe and it would make for a weak steering system.. Anyway I ordered it from RE and it will be in next week. Hopefully before Friday.
Oh while I was there I also found out that they have a tire siping machine and it only cost $2.50 per tire. When I go back I'm going to do it to my BFG MTR's so I'll let you know how it goes. ::xmasgrin
Front end alignment issues
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Quote from "BDLSTOY"
Oh while I was there I also found out that they have a tire siping machine and it only cost $2.50 per tire. When I go back I'm going to do it to my BFG MTR's so I'll let you know how it goes. ::xmasgrin
Might want to think about that.
Those machines will sipe the entire tread without regard as to where the cuts are on the tread block. These can lead to losing chunks of tread when playing off-road.
That is why hand siping is better, but also costs more.
My $.02
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from what i understand about tjs is if you get a dropped pitman arm you will also need and drop trac bar to keep from getting the bumpsteer. the drag link and trac bar have to be at the same angle..... I am sure someone with a tj will chime in but I am pretty sure that is the case.....
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Tony is correct, on a TJ a drop pitman arm will probably cause more problems then it will help unless you have a track-bar drop bracket(which uses a different track-bar). Their should be more than enough adjustment in the TRE's on the tie-rod to adjust the toe in.
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Quote from "BDLSTOY"
I went to Goodyear in Hockessin Friday to get my front end aligned. (A friend of a friend works there and is said to be the best) Anyway he told me he wanted me to get a drop pitman arm to do it right. He said that if I don't he would have to use all the adjustment to straighten out the toe and it would make for a weak steering system..
Your friends are greatly mistaken. Don't do it. There is nothing to do with the toe. It is all about caster; adjust your upper control arms to the shortest possible so that you have a caster angle closest to the factory spec. IF you have more than 5 degree will be good. Factory is 7 degree. Just ask the alignment shop to make sure both sides match other.Do you have the adjustable camber bolts? If your TJ did not come with them, just get a set from the dealer. After 1999, some TJ come with them , some don't. My 2000 TJ did not have them..
Your set up in your TJ should ride a dream. Anything less is not right. When all fail, I will take it back and give you full refund. HTH.
Later,
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i guess what we pm'ed about makes sense now, eh?
like everyone said though - shouldn't have to have the drop arm unless you are in excess of 6" lift...and then only to be used in conjunction with a drop bracketed trackbar. have him dial up your caster like linyee said - and around 5* positive should be good for most tj's with your height. factory control arms/axles are set 6.75* - 7.25* positive. one side is usually just a hair more than the other. that compounded with your toe in being aligned afterwards will keep you tracking true and not wondering on the road. also, the larger you go in tire size the more critical the toe-in becomes. if 33" or less then having it at 1/8" toe-in will suffice. 34" or larger will need it to be even less - around 1/16". i know this seem nitpicky...but you'd be suprised at the difference on the road. also, keep in mind that all your bolts were just tightened/installed a week ago. something may have loosened up slightly. check your torque amounts on all your control arms, your trackbar at both ends, and for play in your TRE's. good luck and let us know what happens.
chris -
linyee..... when talking toe in they are right. unless your running a solid tie rod from knuckle to knuckle (which tj's stock do not) as you lift it the toe in changes.
a drop pitman arm will fix the geometry of the steering which will make it easier to adjust into spec.
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Quote from "BDLSTOY"
Now I'm really confused. I have 3 of my most respected TJ guys on opposite sides of the spectrum. I took my jeep over to Linyee today and he spotted one problem right away. My upper adjustable arms are out too far. He said thats whats making me wander all over the road. As of now I have no bumpsteer or death wobble so I definately don't want any of that.
Please steer me in the right direction (no pun intended)
ThanksThat's CASTER that Linyee is talking about.
The charts will show the caster is non-adjustable on TJ's after '99 since they didn't come with any means to change it from the factory. Therefore a lot of FE guys won't even check it.
You need to find somebody that understands Jeeps, not just FE alignments.
You CAN do all of this in your driveway.
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Quote from "BDLSTOY"
Now I'm really confused. I have 3 of my most respected TJ guys on opposite sides of the spectrum. I took my jeep over to Linyee today and he spotted one problem right away. My upper adjustable arms are out too far. He said thats whats making me wander all over the road. As of now I have no bumpsteer or death wobble so I definately don't want any of that.
Please steer me in the right direction (no pun intended)
Thanks
Well, actually everyone is right in general. But which solution applies to you is the key to resolve your problem. Since I know your kit quite well :), and I saw how was installed. I don't believe your have multiple problems. Like I said, your upper CA is way too long, essentilly you just don't have enough caster angle. You must shorten it so that your Jeep will not wandering around and able to self center after the turn. You may need to adjust the toe in, but it is not your primary concern now. Shortenyour arms and recheck your toe in. You will be fine. You don't even need to have someone to do the alignment. But if professional alignment will make you fell better, then go ahead. Placebo often has a position effect on our head.Lastly, do yourself a favor, don't install the dropped pitman arm. Return it or sell to other. Like I said before, I can come over to help if you need me. It is not really that complicated after you have time to fooll around it for a few years. Good luck.
Later,
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I agree, you dont need the drop pitman arm. I have yet to use one and have no bumpsteer. We also did some lifting to Ians jeep and his steering is fine without a drop pitman arm....Trust me, his jeep is not small either.
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Well on Wedneday I did what Linyee told me to do and I took off my upper adjustable arms and removed the jam nut and then tightened them till they wouldn't go any further and then reinstalled them. The jeep drove much better. Today I took it too Goodyear and had them do the alignment. My caster is now at 8.7 and they said the range should be at 6 - 8.0 Will this do any harm? It does drive a lot better now. They were also able to adjust the toe to 1/16" It drives a whole lot better now. The old toe was at 1.29" WAY out.
Anyway the caster is the only question I have now. Will it hurt anything, if not I'll just leave well enough alone.
By the way I did not use the drop pitman, as advised. -
brian,
are you getting charged for the alignments up there at goodyear? if so i wish i could talk you out of taking it in. the dealer can't adjust your camber - which is the only really critical adjustment that a person would benefit from by using their equipment. you can adjust the arms yourself, and you can adjust the toe yourself with common handtools and a tape measure - anything else after that is non-adjustable since you have a solid front axle. also, four-wheel thrust alignments are not required...your adjustable control arms can take care of the rear axle. 8.7*...still a little high....maybe put them back out a little bit - say a thread and a half or so. then align your toe-in again. that should keep you pretty stable and controlled on the road. but if it centers well, doesn't wander, and feels generally safe then you should be okay. you may have some odd wear patterns occuring on your tires further down the road if you don't rotate them very regularly - but other than that you'll be okay. if you want to talk through aligning it yourself just give me a jingle sometime in the afternoon or pm me - i can break it down very clearly for you and keep you from shelling out the $$$
chrisoh, by the way - saw it in the poser thread - looking sweet!
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Anytime you need anything with an alignment, I can help you. Which will probably get you comfortable enough to do it yourself.
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Thanks Turtle I might take you up on that.
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Quote from "BDLSTOY"
My caster is now at 8.7 and they said the range should be at 6 - 8.0 Will this do any harm? It does drive a lot better now. They were also able to adjust the toe to 1/16" It drives a whole lot better now. The old toe was at 1.29" WAY out.
That is great news. Just take the fron Upper CA out, back out 1.5 to 2 turns. Have Goodyear recheck the the alignment, since you already paid for it, may as well take it back. Did you buy the cam bolts, they will help the alignment guy fine tune your caster.Today Derek and I were helping HarryHood readjust his caster and took the drop pitman arm off and return to stock. He said that the Rubi drives much better now. We also check his alignment, he was toe in almost an inch to much
Later,
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Thank you much for your help today Linyee and Derek. Like a new jeep now
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Quote from "HarryHood"
Thank you much for your help today Linyee and Derek. Like a new jeep now
I love happy ending -
glad you got the jeep all tweaked adn ready to wheel brian see you ont he trails soon I hope
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