Over a couple of posts I have seen something about K & N Filters... what is this? Are they bad... are they good.... are they a huge scam for your money?
K & N Filters
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just a different style of air filter
u have to mantain them buy washing them and re- oiling them
an open element one is good tho by themselves they dont
make a whole lot more h/p
they just make alot of noise imo -
there are two styles of K&N filters...
they make replacement "drop-in" filters for most vehicles. you'll get a *little* extra airflow versus a new paper filter. but, they will last a lot longer, so you'll probably only buy one! just wash and re-oil when it gets dirty. So, I think they're worth the extra cost.
they also make the "FIPK" "Fuel Injection Performance Kit". These are the big cone shaped filters you see in sup-ed up vehicles. These are also washable, so you'll usually only buy one, unless you damage it somehow. These add more power (more airflow=more power), but not a whole lot more. This has a lot of potential, since the larger surface area can handle more air than the smaller stock-size ones can do. Oh, the dead engine at Rausch Creek had a FIPK covered in muddy water, and it started right up. Gotta love that oil coating.
Like Andrew said, by themselves, they won't do a whole lot. But, in combination with other performance mods, they'll help out a bit, especially the FIPK.
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I agree 100% with (whatevah). By themselves their ok, but with other mods, their great. Its a good idea, you never have to replace it, just re oil when its dirty. Definatly not a money scam.
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Pure snake oil, most gains made by "fipk" systems are at really really high RPM's. When is the last time you ran at 7000 rpms? THe other down side to K$N's is letting very fine dust through into your throttle body. A pre-filter is a must with those filters. IMHO money is better spent elsewhere.
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Quote from "whatevah"
they also make the "FIPK" "Fuel Injection Performance Kit". These are the big cone shaped filters you see in sup-ed up vehicles. These are also washable, so you'll usually only buy one, unless you damage it somehow. These add more power (more airflow=more power), but not a whole lot more. This has a lot of potential, since the larger surface area can handle more air than the smaller stock-size ones can do.true they may move alittle more air
but real h/p is made with fresh cold air
not warm/hot engine compartment airunless u get a good deal on a kit from maybe someone wanting to get rid of it
i agree with turtle
money is better spent else where
(i got mine in a swap thats why i have one) -
true, I got sidetracked and forgot some stuff I was going to add to my post.
the air inside the engine compartment isn't the best for going into an air intake system. it's too hot. I bet my stock intake would be just as good as a FIPK where I see most people put them in XJs.
The only people I've seen get more noticeable power in XJs through the intake system used some form of forced-air intake, so the air doesn't go through the hot engine compartment. some snorkles (good ones) can help boost power too, since the air is cooler and actually pushed (a little) into the snorkle when you're driving, not sucked through the FIPK or stock intake.
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Your not going to see any improvement from a snorkel or a "ram air" hood on a Jeep as far as air flow goes.
The snork will get you cooler air, yes. But that air has to travel through the pipe of the snork to get into the engine. With the length of that pipe and all the bends, as well as the wrinkled flex section most people use, there is a lot of turbulence in that system. That slows the air down, cancelling the slight "ram air" effect of the snork.
The hood mounted scoops are gimmick! Even designers of the muscle cars that came with that system in the 60's-70's knew they were gimmick. They are barely even functional. Some, but not many, newer cars with that style setup see a noticable benefit from it, but these cars are a lot more airodynamic than a Jeep, and the intakes are placed differently.
The problem here is that the airflow just isn't there in our Jeeps for this to work well at all. When your driving your brick down the road the air is crashing into the front of the vehicle and being deflected. The area on the hood that everyone mounts scoops to is actually a negative pressure area. The air over the hood is vortexing and rolling off the sides and over the Jeep, not flowing up over the hood, over the windshield, and over the hood, as you would think.
The newer stlye vented hoods that are designed to drop engine bay temps for TJ's/YJ's work. If you look at these hoods you will notice that the vent opening on them is in the general area people put scoops. The vented hood opening is angled to the rear, looking at it from the bottom, and uses the airflow over the hood, that negative pressure, to pull hot air from the engine bay. I know that this isn't what was brought up, but it is a perfect example of why you wont get a benefit from a hood mounted scoop.
Turtle is correct about the need for a prefilter when running a K&N.
The "cold air kits" that they sell for Jeeps are also gimmick. If they are getting air from under the hood the air MAY be a few degrees colder than the original pick up point, but not enough of a temperature difference to give ANY benefit.
You MAY get a few more CFM out of these kits, but again not enough to justify the cost.
Your engine is an air pump. And it is a complete system. The more air it can get in AND out, the more power it will make. But it has to be able to get the air in AND out. For mods to either process to be maximized you have to make a similar mod to the other process.
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along the lines of the novel rob just wrote (just messing, rob) you have to keep in mind that increased flow of air in is only allowed with increased air out. all the high-flow intakes in the world do nothing without completing the system. bored out throttle bodies, high-flow headers, and free-flowing exhausts. only then will you yield the gains touted by K&N and the other similar brands. i see so many people put in the FIPK with no other mods....and it's not even really bringing in more air. it sounds like it is...but that's just cause point where the air is drawn in just changed designs. but without freeing up the other bottlenecks the same amount of air will still be sucked in and used.
i think that DC did a pretty decent job with the whole system in our jeeps....especially considering that inline engines are designed for low rpm grunt and not high rpm horsepower.
chris -
There was a fipk on my TJ when I bought it...it sounds good, I like that aspect of it.
I'd rather have a snorkel.
Anyone wanna trade?
...didn't think so.
DrJ
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The reason for "cold-air" intakes it that the colder the air is the more dense it is giving you more bang for your buck. THe problem with engines that rev low like the I-6 is no matter how much air you give it, it already has too much. LIken it to a person being able to eat 4 pieces of pizza and ordering 2 whole pizzas. You can only eat the 4 pieces so no matter how much pizza you have any more than 4 pieces is unused excess. Do a google search for dyno curves for k$n's and other high flow filters and fipk setups, you will notice that until you hit about 5000 RPM's you gain maybe and it is a maybe 1hp above 5000 RPM's the gains are remarkable this is why they can publish the obscene 20 hp gain. Jeep engineered the engine to function at low RPM's so they make it have excess air through its normal powerband above that it starts to starve, hence the obscene power gains.
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I put the FIPK one on my YJ along with a flowmaster cat back and an accel ignition setup.
I like it. I usually just ran the drop in filters on all my other trucks.
Have one on my f250 and the wifes Xterra... definitly makes a difference in fuel mileage. I have picked up like 2-3mpg with em..
just my 2 cents........................... -
I agree with fuel mileage but I have the TB spacer and free flow exhaust. I does have more midrange for pulling my trailer too.
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oh yeah.. I also installed a TB spacer but I did that well after all the other mods...
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Well said turtle,
Here is shot on this topic.
If increase HP or improve MPG were that easy, auto manufactures will jump on it. Why don’t they? One can easily says that auto manufactures own all oil companies. Therefore, they don’t want to introduce this simple solution to a age-old problem. Interestingly, they are willing to spend millions in research so that they can improve the performance of engine. Please give some credits to the engineers in the auto industries. Don’t kid yourself, they are not stupid. In fact most of them are the best of their class. Increase the airflow will not improve the performance of the engine because the engine has plenty of air, so much so they have to limit the air so that the proper air to fuel ratio will be maintained. That is what the computer for to monitor the engine performance through sensors, for example oxygen sensor. Please do not confuse with louder engine roar after install KN filter with increase performance.
It is so absurd when people start talking about cold air is denser. Therefore, it will improve the performance of the engine. Do they know exactly how much denser for each 10 degree different? Do they know how much MPG increased for the folks who drive in Alaska during winter months? Before the introduction of fuel injection, driving in high altitude did post a problem, But with today’s engine, all are taking care by the computer. There is no need to get denser air to the engine. Don’t let their Ad treats you like you are a moron.
OK, you would say: “I can accept that KN filter will not improving MPG or performance. But I love my Jeep, I wanted to do something special to her and I feel better and proud. Something that is not too complicated and not too expensive”. I know exactly how you feel. Therefore I invented a new air injection system called PHAIS. It only costs $199.00 plus shipping. I know it is a bit more than a KN filter. I charge more not because it costs me more to make. I charge more because it will make you (customer) feel better and more confident on their Jeeps knowing that you try. This is priceless.
Upon receiving your hard earn money, thank you very much, you will receive a couple pair of used but clean pantyhose (Victoria’s Secret, BTW), high quality rubber bands, and full detailed instruction wit a lot of pictures. Feel free to double up the pantyhose layer as it will increase the filtration efficiency. Make sure apply liberally the special formulated PHAIS recharging fluid (extra cost). Because of the ultra-low restriction and open system (just like KN filter), you can immediate hear the engine roars, I hope you know what this means, right, folks? Increase the number of horses!!!!!! :yevil: :yevil: :yevil:
[size=9px]There you have it. Warning, if you want to keep you vehicle for a long time, this may not be a system for you, because it will increase a couple hundred percents of contaminants in your engine oil, just like KN filters. You can do you own test too. Just drain some engine oil after running the jeep (say 5000 miles) with paper filter. Again do the same with KN filter. Send these samples to the lab and ask for the determination of silicates. Let the results speak for this filter. BTW, Paper filter is the most efficient material per a given surface area. [/size]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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I think you are completely wrong about the manufacturers ability to make an intake that flows as efficiently as a K and N air filter. They have to design air boxes that are quiet. They are not efficient. They also use the filters they do because they are cheap. Chrysler doesn't want to spend the money on more efficent ways to make horsepower because they cant. They have to pay all the lazy bums on the assembly line. Also, if that is the case, why do they have the reliability issuse that they have. High performance applications all use open element filter designs because they work. I know for a fact that the throttle response from my Jeep is better, its not just a noise maker. And back to performance from manufacturers, why can Honda achieve 100 hp per litre when the guys on our side of the Atlantic have trouble getting 50-60 out of that same liter. I also know from a fact that the KN's work because my motorcycles have been dynoed with these and they make more horsepower.
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I think non-members have to clear posts that are blatant advertisements with the BOD before posting. But since you posted anyway...
Do we have our choice of color on the pantyhose AND (most importantly) do you include a cool sticker with your kit.
How about a club discount...oh wait, never mind, I forgot you're not a member. Maybe if sales go well...
DrJ
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You are missing the point of what we are saying. In low RPM applications such as a straight six you gain very very little. Look at a dyno curve and you will see that a K$N make 20 hp gains but that is above 5000 RPM's WHo the hell runs a 4.0 at 5000 RPMS. COmparing ricer engines to jeep engines is apples to oranges, same with motorcycle engines. Notice both are high revving applications which given more air do make some performance gains. The FIPK does flow better than a stock air box but the point is it doesn't have to, the engine already has an excess of air so it cannot do anything with more of it. If you feel you gained somehting from you money spent, good for you. All I am doing is presenting a reasonable and scientifically based arguement for the otherside.
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How about fishnet stockings? Would they allow even MORE air in?
DrJ (hint, hint)
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DRJ .....was tha a joke about the products and aproval from the BOD before you can post. just asking
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